Energy Work and Projections: Managing Boundaries with Cat Kabira

0:00 Hey there, before we get started on this week's episode, I would love to ask for your support by reviewing this podcast. We want to share yoga with as many people as possible and this free resource, this podcast is one of the ways that we can do that. And the best way that you can help support us is by giving us a review.

0:16 So if you go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever podcast platform you use, Scroll down until you find that star review and then give us some love. Thank you so much, and let's get started with this week's episode. All of us have the habit to put upon the other something that anything, you know, something that's unmet, something we want, something that we need, something that's unresolved.

0:44 So really common ones would be projecting our sister or brother on someone, our mother, our father, our partner. And again, the keyword is that it's going to be something that is potentially unresolved, though we've all been there where, you know, someone has like a, a facial gesture or a way they say something and it, there's something familiar and it reminds us of them. And so we'll suddenly even project the goodness of our best friend that we haven't seen in

1:12 15 years on this person. And you know, the, the philosophical argument is, is there a reality that's ever happening without projection? Like are we ever not projecting? Welcome to the Going Pro Yoga podcast. If you love yoga as much as I do, then this podcast is for you. We talk all things yoga related for teachers in order to supplement and complement and even support after a 200 hour yoga teacher training.

1:41 Or if you've never done a training before, this podcast is all about just learning more about yoga in an authentic way. Together with Paul Tioto and Byron de Marseille, we put together this podcast to provide you with a free resource to learn more about yoga. Whether you want to share yoga or teach yoga or just practice yoga.

1:58 This podcast is talking all things yoga related and we're trying to talk from the teacher's perspective and also the students perspective to make sure we get a full 360° angle on what yoga is all about and how it's evolved in the modern world. Welcome to our podcast.

2:12 Hello, and welcome back to the Going Pro Yoga Podcast. Michael Henry here, your host and a continuation from last week's episode. We have Kat Kabira with us again. Hello, Kat. Hey. Hi. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to have you again to have another fantastic conversation.

2:32 So if you're just tuning into this episode and you landed on it for the title, Yeah, this is a two-part series or more or less. They're connected. The previous episode, the previous week, we talked about overwhelming boundaries and kind of dove into that and then, yeah, a few other topics as well.

2:48 But ultimately the energy around that, how to, you know, make healthy boundaries, be aware of boundaries. And you know, we talked about porous boundaries, strict boundaries, these types of things and then just dealing with overwhelm and giving some practical solutions and applicable things for that. So go have a listen to that one.

3:03 That'll kind of give a nice little foundation. Plus, you know, we introduced cat a little bit in that one. So and also we have Cat. I think you came in. Two other times I just keep showing up. Yeah, so there's a few if you want to scroll back, but maybe just a quick little. Who are you, Kat?

3:21 You are a human. I am a human born in New York. I've lived here for almost 20 years. I do travel a lot and I have my own energy school was a yoga teacher trainer for a long time, but really now focus on helping people manage their own energy body and also how to become a practitioner in working with energy and you're.

3:45 The You're the energy person. I I'm the energy person, yeah. We want to simplify. You're the energy person and emotional energy. Yeah. Cool. So interesting. Today we're going to talk about, well, actually I'm not 100% sure where it's going to go, but the word projection comes up.

4:01 So if you're not familiar with the word projection, we're not talking about projecting on a screen. We're talking projecting, let's say energy or projecting something towards someone else. Is that right? How would you? How would you define it?

4:12 Yeah, that's great. So probably this would be defined more from like a psychological standpoint, because that's where I learned about it, is that all of us have the habit to put upon the other something that anything, you know, something that's unmet, something we want, something that we need, something that's unresolved.

4:40 So really common ones would be projecting our sister or brother on someone, our mother, our father, our partner. And again, the keyword is that it's going to be something that is potentially unresolved, though we've all been there where, you know, someone has like a, a facial gesture or a way they say something and it, there's something familiar and it reminds us of them. And so we'll suddenly even project the goodness of our best friend that we haven't seen in

5:07 15 years on this person. And you know, the, the philosophical argument is, is there a reality that's ever happening without projection? Like, are we ever not projecting? And if I'm going to geek out a little bit more in biodynamic craniosacral therapy, which is part of my energy school, we actually focus on the importance of trying to be neutral and acknowledging that you can't actually ever be completely neutral.

5:38 But that attempt, because already you're going to impact someone else's energy field. You know, the way that you're looking at someone will impact how they feel themselves, how they experience it. And especially in the like subtle energetic context, in the healing context, you can really either empower someone or disempower them.

5:59 And and they may not be able to articulate, oh, I feel this happening to me, but they can feel it. And a common example would be, you know, you're, you're working with someone, you're the practitioner. And let's say like underneath, cause 'cause we all have our thoughts and feelings, you know, there's some projection around like this person's really messed up, you know, and they're like, there's some judgement. And so instead of their system coming into a place of expansion, you know, it can, it

6:25 can hit other places where like, oh, there's something wrong with me, you know. And so the challenge we all have as humans just existing is that we all have our own beliefs that that are embedded in US and stories that are probably not even true. That's really like impacting how we perceive ourselves, how we interact with others, how we experience reality. And so, you know, part of what we're looking for is how do we create a new possibility?

6:53 You know, that's what I would call is like the healing response. And so of course, you know, that can happen in a healing context, but that can happen as just a human to human context. And where I really want to gear it a little bit today is, you know, for yoga teachers, because where this projection, although this impacts us in all of our lives, where it can get really heavy and confusing is if you're a yoga teacher, you know, you're one, you've got 20 students in

7:23 the room, you've got 20 people projecting things on you. And how do you manage that? Most of the time we're highly unconscious around it, however, because all of us have projected things as well. We've all been there when, like, we're like, in love with or like putting our teacher on the pedestal because, you know, we're getting some ecstatic experience, right? Yeah.

7:47 They remind us of an ex-boyfriend or a father figure or a mother figure, sister, something like that. Right. And, and so, and there can also be a projection of like, you're a God, you know, like you're a hero, like you're a priest, You're my guru.

8:02 Yes, yes, you know, and then there can be that flip side of that projection of like some teachers just being teacher and actually may not have actually done something or, or have, but there can be a projection of like you're the villain, you know, you're you're bad in some way.

8:19 And there's actually like, you know, certain archetypes that we can project. And so, you know, one of the arguments is that like the projections will keep coming up until we can learn to integrate and hold them within ourselves.

8:31 But you know, where it can get really challenging as a teacher is that, you know, most of us will take a 200 hour training. There's so much material to go through and, and it's like now you're teaching and even if you're a skillful teacher, it's like, how do you actually handle all of the energy that's getting thrown at you all the time? And when it's a group class, it's a little bit easier because you can like leave after 90 minutes. But when you're holding a

9:01 workshop or a training, there is a lot that can happen and how that can impact someone. And I'm just going to go actually to the most out there possibility is like on a subtle energetic level, if you're not conscious of this happening, you might take that projection on and that might show up even just how you're feeling in your body. You might be tired, you might get drained. You might just like literally like if I'm looking at someone's system, it's like they've been

9:27 splat with stuff. But it can also happen just in behavior, you know, of like taking ownership of something where it's like, wow, like this person's actually in a deep process because yoga's a deep process. Their stuff's coming up. They're actually starting to have these memories, have these things that need to need to rise. But as a way to kind of deal, they're going to put it on teacher because that's what happens. And it's like, what do we do with these moments? Because it can get confusing.

9:58 It can get messy for the student, messy for the teacher, messy for the group, and not fun, you know, like projections are, you know, it's, it's usually very painful experiences. And I yeah. So let me let me stop you there. You open up a lot of cans and I want to I. Know they're like all over.

10:17 The I know. What are we going to do? So I'm just going to advocate a little bit for the understanding aspect and trying to make this as accessible as possible. So the projections, which isn't, you know, let's just say an energy going outward towards the students and then it, you know, things that are being received. So the, some of the words you used was like beliefs or stories, those are typically some of the things that projected some sort of energy

10:41 or, or experience that we've had or learned from. Let's whether it be family members or, you know, some friends or something like this. And maybe that energy is something that's stuck within us, maybe in a healthy way, maybe not in a healthy way. So the, the way I wanted to ask is a little bit about like healthy projection, unhealthy projection, 'cause like if you're saying like we're doing it all the time, you know, we're trying to find a neutral, but

11:06 the reality is it's not ever truly root neutral. But like, is there certain projections of like, for example, I don't know if my mother's a loving, happy, outgoing person who just expresses love and I'm projecting that essence of who I am and what I got from her to my students and the people. So like that would obviously be a positive thing, right? So I just wanted to kind of talk a little bit about more so the understanding in a simpler way of what projection actually is. Like is it like a, would you

11:38 consider it almost like a, like a traumatic response in the body that's kind of being coming out or is that a version of it? Or is it just kind of like personality to some degree as well? Like how would, how else can we describe it? I mean, I would say first and foremost, we all project in the sense that we all have eyes that are looking out and we're putting onto reality the way we see the world. And where the trauma response would be is there's a lot of unresolved pain that we haven't

12:09 made sense of. And so we're putting a lot of negative memories, fears, conditions on the outside world. So we're not seeing things as they are, you know, And so that's the trauma response. I love that you brought up like healthy projection because, yeah, you know, when you're looking at someone who has had like a, a wonderful experience with their mother, you know, it's, it's like that's, that's the projection they'll put out. I actually had a client of mine

12:39 who, you know, I work with so many different people and I've, I've met her family, you know, and, and, and she like really was raised well and is very balanced. And I asked her like, what, what is your expectation when you walk in the room? And she said, well, I just expect everybody to like me. And I was like, you know, I've never heard anyone and like, and she does like I, I see her, you know, and I was like, wow, what would that be like, you know,

13:07 both for my clients, but you know, for me, you know, like I've been quite awkward over the years. I'm like, what would that be like to really expect that, you know, and part of that was what was integrated into her, her system. So that would be a healthy projection. And what's fun about this?

13:24 There's three things that are fun. One is when you put that positive projection out, you're also going to get the reflection. So people are also going to play back like, Oh yeah, I'm supposed to like you, I'm going to like you, right?

13:38 There's it's, it's that difference between people who walk in the room and they're like, hey, and they just, they like they're like, I belong. And everyone's like, well, yes, you do, you know, versus someone else who comes in and they're, you know, like very like, you know.

13:53 Restricted and constricted. And they're like, I don't belong, you know, and they immediately kind of create that isolated energy field. So our projection impacts our energy field, which is how other people respond. And so that's the challenge is that a lot of us who have that, that trauma projection will, will feel like everyone's judging. They aren't, but that's going to be the message they're putting out and, and what they'll be receiving. So it can get really unclear

14:21 around like what's actually going on. But the the other two fun parts about positive projection is you can rewire these so you're not stuck with your projections, you know, whatever happened to you. And that's kind of the whole fun about trauma therapy is that we get to rewrite it, we get to transform, we get to create new possibilities.

14:45 And so when we start to understand like, oh, I'm just projecting this and actually I wanna, I want to have a different reflection back. How do I start to play with that? And then the the other one is where you can actually use it as a tool.

15:01 And it just reminds me back in the day when I had piano recitals, 'cause I, I just hated them. And my mom would just be like, all right, you know, just imagine that everyone's naked and they're wearing like, you know, purple underwear with just purple underwear.

15:15 And I had this music teacher that I really didn't like. And he was like, like, he was quite overweight and scowly. And she's like, just imagine him with these like huge pink pigtails. Like she would just, and so you know, that that's a little bit over the top, but I would literally put this projection so that I could relax and just sit on the piano and play and just be like, there's a bunch of Muppets in front of me in their underwear.

15:40 So you know that that's another way. Like I, I guess what I'm trying to name is that we don't need to get caught in these projections. And I think that's what we're looking for is like, where's the power in all this? This is great. This is helpful.

15:53 So I would say becoming aware of it is always number one. It's an awareness number one for everything. So hopefully this is at least a good start of it. And then starting to notice, is this something that I'm actually seeing? I liked how you said that, like, is this actually the reality or is this my reality that I'm pushing out and that it's an experience?

16:16 So for example, I'll just have a quick story. Try not to name names here, but recently or at least maybe a week or two ago, I was frustrated with somebody about something. And it was something that they did or that didn't do. And it was just, you know, I was like, ah, there's, I have this feeling that's I'm that's moving outwardly towards them. And I eventually started to get to the questioning of my own, like, OK, so is it that I'm frustrated with them because of the expectation that I had

16:50 wasn't met? Or is it that I'm deep down I'm frustrated with myself because I wasn't clear on my expectations or I wasn't clear about what I wanted. So they just didn't understand or they didn't know. So, you know, they did what they did.

17:02 And now I'm projecting my internal frustration actually towards them. But they're innocently over there being like, oh, I didn't know. Like, how did you know? So I ended up bringing that to my therapist and she's like, exactly.

17:13 She's like, it sounds like you're frustrated with yourself about your clarity of communication and language. And I was just like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And it feels like it's dimming actually as we talk about it. So anyway, I just thought I'd share that example of, you know, the another perspective of the projection of that something's actually going on within you. That's not a true reality of what's actually going on outside you or around you.

17:39 Yeah. And I, I that's actually a perfect example. Is that when it's a negative projection, it will usually be much more internalized and from something old that hasn't been resolved. And that's why it keeps going out. And I guess I, I do want to name 'cause this can be tricky territory where we can gaslight ourselves of, well, anytime there's something negative going on, you know, it's just all my own stuff as opposed to, you know, and it's like, well, no,

18:11 sometimes you are still, you can have a projection happen and also a negative response because something like something not healthy is actually happening in the present moment. So I kind of want to name that because it both can happen at the same time. Like it's not just negative stuff that's happening from the past.

18:31 Yeah, OK. Cool. So then the positive stuff. So if we kind of bring this back to the the facilitator skill set or the yoga teacher thing, let's kind of look at each side. So there's the side of receiving the projections and then the side of actually like, you know, projecting out to the students. So maybe we can start with us individually as facilitators showing up and not trying our best not to project out, let's say negative in negative way.

19:02 So bringing in in to me the translation there is bringing your crap into the room. And, you know, it it being felt in the room, which might be, you know, the trauma or not trauma, but like the stress or some sort of issue that you got going on outside of the room that you're coming in with that energy and that frequency of your field. And then as you're teaching the yoga, you're not fully present because you still have elements of this projection that's lingering within yourself.

19:28 And then it might be felt or experienced by the students or the people that are in the room. Yeah, like. Another way I would say it is to the best of our ability, how do we walk in with a, a clear or organized field so that we can just hold space and that it really is just like we're contained. And, and when that's not happening, there can it can bring about a lot of different possibilities and triggers and, and realities.

20:00 It just it it ends up not being a clear space for anyone. And and also even our teaching, it's like it, it's not a clear transmission. You know, it's like it, it can be murky whatever is coming through and not just through our words and not just through the practice, but even just like that, that telepathic field, you know, like there, there's going to be a transmission. And So what are we projecting in that transmission? I even think about it's more of

20:28 a question, but I remember I might have even said this in one of our other podcasts. But one of my first teachers said a few years into my teaching, like, you know, Cat, you do know that your students are walking in the room believing that there's something really wrong with them and that they need to go to great lengths to fix themselves.

20:48 And that's their neuroses. Now. I was 25, and I was really stuck in that. And so I was like, well, yeah, I mean, that's what we're doing. And and so, you know, like, considering even though like I, I was I, I, I know back then people love my classes.

21:10 Like what was transmitting? If if deep in there was still this belief of like, we've got to work for this, you know, like we're not OK. And you need. To heal. Yeah, you. Know and it and it and in some ways it sparked it.

21:25 It was a great money maker in the sense that it sparked everyone else was like, yeah, you know, like we, we can't rest, you know, like, or if we do, you know, it, it's in a certain way we got to heal and fix this. So it it's, it's so it, it is an interesting like, what are we projecting? What is our message?

21:41 What's that transmission that we have? And then even just on another level of the, the projection as a teacher, where I remember for myself, because I, I started teaching when I was 22. And so it's like, I mean, I, I say, I say this because I'm much older now, like my hormones and retrospect were just like wild and all over the place.

22:03 And so part of my boundaries and one of my rules was like, you can't date your students. And, and I remember thinking I had to always make sure that I was in a relationship or was sexually satisfied because I knew otherwise, you know, teaching 1518 classes a week. It's like that energy would just be going everywhere, you know, So it's like, how do we, that projection, you know, that can, again, I wouldn't be saying anything, but people would feel it in the field, you know, and

22:30 so I would say that would be like another example of that kind of management on a positive projection level. You know, I mean, that's where in some ways it's again, when I'm sitting and grounding. And I think we talked about this in one of the first two episodes of, you know, I, I take that time for 5 minutes before I, I teach and I'm listening to the field and I'm, you know, containing myself.

22:55 I would say that there's a positive intention or projection that comes through of like, what's the gift that everyone needs today? You know, and sometimes it's just like, I want everyone to walk out of this room feeling like themselves again, you know, or like everyone feels gifted in some way, you know, like I, I, I get some magical phrase or very practical, but that would be like a, a, a positive projection. And is that you kind?

23:18 Of it's like creating it or you're shifting it or maybe like you're kind of like going through your toolbox of like, what do I want to? It's almost like, what do I want the theme of this to be? Yeah, like how do I want to show up and kind of give a different language, right.

23:32 And it's. And it's different from, you know, like, huh, like we'll do heart opening today where it's, it's not like a, a, a flip or superficial one or, or even one that I'm imposing. Like, you know, every, every three pose is OK. Like, you know, we're all going to come back to ourselves and I may not ever even is it, but I first I'm like listening to the field and it's almost like it has to, it's like synesthesia. Like I have to like has to taste

23:57 and feel right where I'm like trying on ones. And then I'm like, yeah, that's the one that we're doing today. And I'll kind of just drop it in and and see what, what unfolds. So it's it's quite unspoken, but yeah, that's this is beyond.

24:12 Like cognitive, like I want, you know, thinking this, it's like you actually need to like embody it, yes. 1000% And also like when I'm doing this, I'm drawing a circle behind me and around everyone. So when I say behind me, meaning I get to have it too. And I I just want to name that.

24:31 As a side note for most teachers, we tend to be in over giving mode where it's like we'll exhaust herself in the giving and we forget. Like we get to receive this magic too. We get to receive the field. We we get to get lit. And so whatever it is, that is the transmission. It's like, yeah.

24:47 And me too. Like, I get to have this so that I get to walk out of the room also feeling, you know, this the same gift. Yeah. The. Transmission that's a good one because that to to me that's like connected like how connected are you to the students, the room, the experience and that will help probably help you feel good about what you're doing. And then also the students themselves will also kind of get the benefit of noticing that, you know, feeling seen to some degree or feeling like there's a

25:16 connection here between this teacher and there's something about this teacher that they just make me feel a certain way or I, I feel a certain way whenever I'm, you know, in their class or something to this effect and that transmission that that passes through. Yeah.

25:30 And I, I love that you just said feeling seen because again, if we go back to projection, well, the name of the projection is we're not seeing things as they are, even if we're slapping beautiful nice things. You know, it's, it's like if we really want to see the totality. And so if our real mission is to see things as they are, you know, if a gift that we give someone is I see you, you know, so, so there is, we're almost playing with how do we use projection as a way to see

25:57 someone? That's cool. OK, cool. So thinking about the teacher, the facilitator and showing up in a way that is intentional, embodied, grounded, of course, to be able to hold space and try not to bring your whatever into the room that might be, you know, not really what's actually happening in the room or, you know, hopefully not something that's happening within your world and also being brought into the room.

26:29 So kind of almost starting, like you said, fresh or neutral and then maybe flirting with what would be really helpful for these, this group, these people and maybe, you know, scanning the room. You said, you know, scanning the field, scanning the room and just kind of like trusting your intuition to some degree. And just, you know, because I'm just thinking practically like, how do I do all this projection stuff? It's like, you know, trying become aware and then try to just become aware of what might

26:54 be and then testing it out and throwing, throwing some things out there and and, you know, seeing the response, but then also doing it in a way where you actually embody that so that the transmission is like it's actually being projected versus you just thinking this thing and hoping that it happens, but nothing actually happens, you know what I mean?

27:11 Yeah. OK, cool. So that's really helpful. And then now talking about the things that come in, right? And that's where, again, if we go back to, let's say that there's that initial ritual of I'm grounding myself, I'm being intentional, I'm clear, there's clarity in my field. And, and I, you know, I want to highlight that you can have grief and anger and sadness and stuff happening in your life and still it can be integrated into your system and you can feel clear.

27:42 And, and I think it's essential because if we go into the yoga practices or energy practices, these are meant to bring up stuff in people. You know, things are meant to rise. And you know, we talked a little bit in the last episode about, about how to do it in an effective way where it's, it's healthy processing, you know, it's not creating overwhelm or chaos in the system, but these are meant to bring things up. And so as these things rise, you know, more mature or, or well versed student might know how to

28:17 contain and be with it and ride the wave. But it's quite common when it's new of like, OK, I'm, I'm putting this, I'm putting the the unresolved pain and competition and jealousy and fear I have with my sister, you know, on the other. And, and I'm saying this because first hand it, it was something that, if I'm really honest, I'm, I'm quite candid in all of this. I actually would see sometimes even be nervous with teaching of like, what am I going to get

28:51 today? You know? And, and so part of my, my protection was actually expecting there's going to be some protect projections that happened today. And so that I would know. So I wouldn't be surprised, I would expect it. And I would really have to look at how do I interact so that they can realize it's a projection and it's not me.

29:17 And, and I'll, I'll give like an example of that. Oh man, I mean, one, really one just comes to mind. I was running an energy training in like 2013. And I got an e-mail that night from a student where she was like, I was laying on the massage table and, you know, I was, I was asking for you to come in my mind and you didn't show up. And, you know, like you were busy with the other students and, and, you know, and, and I took that projection on of like, Oh my God, Kat, like, you know,

29:52 you do mind read. Why didn't you hear her asking for you? You actually mind? Read I. Yeah, yeah. Not, not all the time, but like it, it happens. I'll I'll tell you a story about it, but it it can just happen. And I was like, man, you know, like I failed because it went into all my wounds. Like I, I need to be the best.

30:11 I need to be this like super, whatever. I, you know, I somehow failed. And so I really took that on. Like, I am so sorry that I really wasn't there for you. When in retrospect, where in reality it's like, babe, like you open your mouth and you raise your hand and say, cat, I'm, I'm here and you're 1 of 20 students.

30:30 And you know, and so that was just like a common example of having students put on their needs that were unmet from mother or father. And where I would make it messy is not actually see what's going on. And there what the healing response, like the, the possibility, the three ways it can go is one is like using that example is me saying sorry for something that actually it's no, that wasn't, that would not have been the appropriate response, you know, but it also wouldn't have been healing to be like,

31:10 girl, you're crazy, you know, like, why, why wouldn't you just like open your mouth and and just ask for things? I mean, obviously there would be that layer in there that I would say kindly, but the healing response would be, wow, I hear that you felt really alone in that moment and that you wanted someone to be there for you and. And that was really painful for you. It's like the healing response is listening to where someone's problem is without actually

31:39 saying and yeah, like I somehow screwed up because I just wasn't reading your mind and didn't run over, right. Does that make sense? Yeah. It's like. Acknowledging or allowing it to be seen. And then for them, they will feel seen because they're like, they're probably going to be like, exactly. That's exactly how I felt, yeah.

31:54 And, and because of that, then there will be a softening and where I'm also not out of integrity of like I'm taking on something that's not mine. But then I can dive in with them to be like, well, let's let's really figure out where this is going. You know, where did this really come from? And then they could be like, oh, my mother never, you know, But it just gives that it's like, how do we soften? Because the mistake we can make in dealing with these projections is either completely

32:21 dismissing it and that just is like, Yep, there it's happening again. Creates a fight, creates a defense or we take on something that wasn't ours. And so they might be like self-righteous or they probably won't feel, they won't feel good from that because that wasn't the truth either. And so as the practitioner or the teacher, it's like, wow, like now I feel terrible, sick.

32:46 You know, I just took on something that's not mine. And so it's in it's nuanced territory. And you know, what can be strange and again, my world is like the subtle, you know, is that it can these projections are happening even just with eyes looking at you, you know, there's so much information that's coming through the eyes.

33:02 And it's like, how do we create boundaries? So we're not just taking all that on, but also, you know, in the more gross lever level is through the behavior, you know, and how do we manage, you know, the when this is happening for students and how do you even give a contact?

33:18 So I actually started teaching about projection in my teacher trainings because especially when it's like longer courses, that's when it gets really juicy so that they could start to have a differentiation around what's going on and and not stay so like believing in it. Does that make sense?

33:37 Yeah, I think. So, so I mean, I'm hearing the, the, the neutral choice of responding first of all, when noticed or not, even when noticed, you might not even really notice. This is a projection and labeling it as a projection. But like this, I think the example is relatable to either being like, oh shit, like taking it on as like, this is my fault, my responsibility.

33:59 I needed to be better. I need to show up, which is kind of, you know, you can call it a worthiness pain to some degree, right? Or rejecting and dismissing it, which would be also another type of pain of, you know, basically defence as you described it, or the neutral ground, which is really, it's actually doing less.

34:18 It's like you're not actually trying to do or change anything, accept or reject. You're just acknowledging it. And like you, we said at the beginning, seeing what it is. So you use the words I'm seeing, I'm noticing, or what I'm think I'm noticing is this, you know, I'm, you know that you seem to be feeling this, you seem to be upset about this.

34:36 And you know, whether it's unpacking it from like a trauma energy perspective, which might not be relatable to everyone because not everyone on this podcast is going to be someone who's probably dealing with healing people's traumas, or at least maybe not yet. Maybe they want to focus on their own. But also at the same time, we want to be better people who can relate to others and have better relations. So whenever these moments happen, it's like, OK, cool. How can I be a better person for

35:00 this person from a connection perspective? And it's, it's kind of like, I just think of, you know, relationships with like, my partner. Sometimes it's like you don't need to do anything or you don't need to. Like, sometimes you just need to, like, sit and listen and just help me feel seen and heard so I can actually have go through my own experience to some degree. That's healing in itself, yeah.

35:19 I mean, that's where again, not to keep looping in my energy school, but it's it's, it's what I practice. It's, it's the more feminine practice of there is a healing response in really listening. And, and in that process, you know, if we're just talking about energy, that listening of the energy, it just starts to flow because it's like, OK, I'm seeing. And then it actually finds its own way through. So as you said, they're doing less. It actually is relieving as a

35:48 teacher of like, I don't need to, I don't need to figure this out. Like this may be way beyond my scope of, of skill set, but I'm listening and maybe someone's not ever listened to them before. And when people start to feel listened to, you know, it's like, that's when their own wisdom comes through.

36:06 And, and yeah, that's when again, like I, I say often to my clients, like, I'm not going to give you the answer. Like I'm going to be with you. I'm going to reflect things back to you. But when you make that choice, it's going to come from you because that's when we can trust ourselves the most. So it's it's, but it's interesting too, when we talk about this, shall we call it like a feminine practice of really listening and that that through this, you're actually someone's getting to be seen

36:32 that there's actually a boundary that you get to hold for yourself as the teacher where you're not saying this didn't happen. You're not saying, yes, I'm so sorry. You're actually just acknowledging like, I'm with you in this, but I'm not taking it on. And that's really important because I think As for most teachers, boundaries are always going to be like the fun thing to play with, you know, and and it can can get murky, you know, quite easily.

37:00 Yeah, I was going to say I don't. Know if fun would be the word everyone would use but. For you it might be. Fun because you fully, you know, you understand it, but yeah, it can be challenging I would say. But you know, the previous episode last week, we talked a lot about the boundaries, the porousness.

37:15 So as a prerequisite for this, hopefully listeners have already heard that that episode. But yeah, I would agree that it's, it's a, you know, flirting with this in a neutral way, which made me think of like, in order to do this, you need to be grounded, right? I know we already mentioned it, but I think it's important to acknowledge that again, like being grounded and being neutral in your own space is going to be able to make it easier to make the choice to respond in that

37:42 acknowledging seeing kind of way. Versus if you aren't grounded and you are having your own experience and maybe your nervous system isn't quite regulated, which would be a way that I would describe it. You know, it would be harder for you to respond versus react in a way that is taking it on or react in a way that is rejecting and pushing away. Yeah.

38:02 At that, I mean, it's the grounding is essential because I know at least I'm just drawing on my own experiences when this projection happens, you know, it can kind of come like a curveball where I'm like, oh, I didn't expect this.

38:16 And if I'm not really feeling settled in myself, like, let's just say I happen to be a little hungry and scattered and you know, like tired it, it, it and it might hit something in me where I'm like, you know, I'm not good enough where I didn't, you know, I screwed up somehow, you know, whatever my own personal wounds might be, then it, it is easy.

38:37 I mean, it's, it's, we say there's a choice point, but it, it's pretty easy to fall into our, our own stuff, you know, and I've watched that in myself when I'm teaching where, you know, suddenly I'm like, Oh, I'm so bad, you know, and, and it's like I'm no longer in my midline.

38:52 I'm no longer clear. I'm no longer like, what's the healing response? You know, I'm, I'm suddenly in like survival mode and I can even feel like my body shake and it's like my voice gets a little bit higher. So it's something I've had to cultivate over the years.

39:05 And that's why it has helped me to be like, yeah, people are going to have their stuff come up and they're going to fling it at me, you know, and almost like, I, I, I know I've been using playful language today. But for me, my protection is being playful because if I get too serious about it, oh, man, you know, it's, it's it's like, it, it, it it can get very heavy very fast for sure. Yeah.

39:31 I like playful as well. Yeah. I, I, yeah, I think about playfulness especially like talking about this and whether it be talking about trauma or anything that can feel somewhat heavy emotions and these types of things like, you know, if you talk about it in a serious way and it, that just doesn't feel very exciting.

39:49 It feels like, Oh my God, like life sucks, you know, and it makes me think of, I mentioned this today in the class that I was teaching earlier, Peter Levine or Peter Levine. So Waking the Tiger, the book Waking the Tiger, which is a great book that talks a lot about, you know, drama and emotions and to some degree all this stuff and.

40:09 How we're related, we're we're very similar to animals, but at the way that we respond to trauma and deal with trauma is obviously very different because of societal norms and all this stuff. Anyway, so I'm listening to the audiobook or I have been listening to the audiobook, but it's so monotone and like, and then this happens and then and I'm just like, so, but I'm taking elements of it.

40:31 You know, the, the book was, I don't know, written in maybe the 90s or 80s or something like that, but it was, it's so dry and like low energy that I'm like, Oh my God, it's depressing. So like I try when I take some of those lessons and I, you know, share with the students or I try to, you know, share some of the lessons from it, I try to bring the playfulness in right, right, right.

40:51 Also knowing it's, you know, somewhat of a serious topic, but also like, yeah, you know, let's, let's not judge ourselves based off of the information we're learning. Let's not try to like reflect on like, I'm not being good enough.

41:00 I'm not doing this well. And like, oh, I don't know if I'll ever figure that out. It's like, or we're just like, let's just learn about it and let's just see what happens. And like, let's just you know, and that makes it feel a bit lighter and more relatable, I'd say yeah.

41:12 And I. I think it, it's because again, if we go into that, that pain, which is like, I must fix myself and I am not OK. You know, it's a very dramatic language because also our core wounds, our, our child voices, which are very like, I hate you and I have no place on this earth. You know, which I, I hang out with toddlers sometimes. And so now I'm like, Oh, that's, that's how my core wounds talk. You know, they're, they're so dramatic. But I was actually just talking

41:38 to an actress the other day who, you know, she wants to create like a whole program and centre. And one thing that's really healed her is that she said using comedy with trauma. And while comedy and play can be a way to avoid, you know, pain and I, I catch myself and I call other people on it, I know that I'm able to process and I'm not stuck in the pain the moment I can start to have that funeral humor.

42:10 And so I do think it's really important to be able to, to how do we start to bring that lightness in when we're going into this material? Yeah. And I was just thinking and I was like, how do we actually do? How do I do that? How do you do that?

42:23 I don't know, to be honest. I think I just try to be myself. That's what I would say. I just try to be authentic. And you know, obviously, again, I just want to prerequisite the being grounded, feeling regulated in my nervous system so that whenever I'm showing up to teach or to talk about a lesson or something like that, that I can be myself.

42:42 I can be my authentic and, you know, deliver and then also be present to be able to listen to how that information is being received. And then if questions come up about it, then I can, you know, be present to those questions and then help them feel seen and understood.

42:57 And it's like, you know, similar stuff. It's if someone asks me a question, I can just repeat back, it sounds like what you're asking me is something related to XYZ. And they'll be like, yes, exactly. It's like, OK, cool, perfect.

43:07 Now they feel seen. They feel like, OK, you understand me and then now I can respond, right? That's a way that you can kind of go into that versus and, and this is interesting because this is something or a trauma that I've had to deal with at one point was just as a facilitator and teaching a lot of, you know, lessons and and lectures is being challenged. As a.

43:29 Facilitator and someone not agreeing with what I'm saying or doing. And then me, you know, how, how am I going to respond? Am I going to be able to respond in a way that says rejecting that? And like, no, that's not right. This is the way or like, oh, I'm sorry, you're totally right. Like that's right.

43:46 Or like, OK, cool, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Like what is it that you've heard or what is it that you believe? That's interesting. Cool. I see it a little bit differently and that's OK. Like I like that you have your own perspective on it.

43:58 And, you know, and I've learned these things and it's an interesting topic to to explore and like, that's a like a neutral way of responding. And I've had to learn how to do that because there's been times where I've been facilitating and, you know, I've, I've played with the, the left and the right, which would be the rejection or the the full acceptance or submission. I'd say it's more the rejection one that I played of being like, and that would be like myself

44:24 worth of being like, No, no, no, I'm right, No, this is right. No, no, that's not right. No, this is right. You know, and you know, the more that I've done it, I've learned that, you know, it doesn't matter who's right and wrong, first of all. And but yeah, it was, it was hard to recognize that, but I did notice that my system, my being, my nervous system, whatever you want to call it, was not necessarily balanced on those moments.

44:45 And then whenever that thing comes in, that projection, that experience, that question, was I in a position to be able to receive it, you know, digest it, so to speak, and then respond? Or was my system not quite balanced in a way?

45:02 And that when it was received it, it, it tipped me over. And then now my response was subjected to whatever projection might be right coming out the door. And I think it's. Interesting, because I, I definitely know that place and where I, I would default more on the submissive side. And, you know, my, my little wondering is you're just being, you know, you being raised more male, me being more raised female.

45:26 Like the self doubt is, is kind of indoctrinated in our systems. Is, is, is what I noticed like not as a 1000%, but it's, it's a pretty common pattern. And so, yeah, and, and to watch like I would feel this collapse because very common questions would be just about energy and what's the science behind all of this, you know, and I'd be like, fuck, I got an hour, you know, with these people to give an experience and where there would just be these challenges. And so of course, the art is how

45:59 do we let everything belong? And and it's but it does take being balanced in oneself. Once we hit that wound or insecurity, it's like, you know, we do lose that center. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Well hopefully this is helpful. It's definitely helpful for me to kind of reflect back on some experiences I've I've already had, so it makes it relatable to me.

46:21 I wrote down some notes, but I'm not sure. General learning lessons and relatability, that's what I wrote, but it's not springing anything for me. I think we just kind of talked about that. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it just came through.

46:32 Naturally, I have some special. Scrawl that I can't actually decipher so I'm I'm just going to OK so. We've got random little notes that we can't actually read. But yeah, I think basically just to kind of like where are we?

46:44 We're talking about as facilitators, teachers, you know, people that care to be of service, how we're showing up. And then also how we're, how we're able to handle receiving what would show up possibly not because of us like other people's bringing things into the room.

47:03 And then when things happen, how do we respond versus react? Is our reaction going to be a, an automatic, call it a trauma response, belief, a story or something, or that we actually seeing the question, seeing the comment as what it is, right?

47:21 Right and even seeing them where they are, where we can actually kind of almost get a sense of their background and where they're coming from. Because I know that when I had my own insecurities of I'm not enough, there would be an interpretation when someone would ask a question and you know, for example, sometimes people be like, well, where did you learn this certain technique?

47:44 And I would feel like a fraud, like, well, I made it up. Like made it up in the sense that like through years of training, this is what I've developed. I didn't just make it up like out of nowhere, right? But feeling like, well, I'm wrong because I don't actually, I didn't have a teacher for this one.

47:59 Like no one got to teach, you know, I had to figure it out. And So what I've learned is going back to how do we respond is asking questions so that I don't go into that assumption of like, well, you must think that, you know, I'm, I'm a fraud and that I have to prove myself right.

48:13 And I'm like, well, you know, I'm curious why you want, you know, why you want to know? And they'd be like, well, I want to learn it. And I'd like great. Well, come study with me. Yeah. So it it is that's that's important.

48:24 And I think even we could on a more relatable, like word instead of projection, it's just assumptions. I mean, how many times? I mean, I'm thinking about both in yoga, but for you as a physio and for me when I do energy healing, people will come in with high expectations that this one session is just going to, like, entirely change their life, you know? And it's like, how do we manage those expectations that that people have that that also is just an important boundary. Yeah.

48:54 Yeah, this. Yeah, the expectations. It's a whole. Other podcast right there. Oh boy. Yeah. Expectations is a hard one to play with. I mean, to me, I just try to not have them, yeah. Yeah, even with myself. Like I, you know, like goals.

49:13 I would, I would replace it with goals like, you know, not to talk too much about it, but like goals for myself instead of expectations on myself. Mostly just because expectations, you know. If expectations aren't met, then it's followed with disappointment.

49:29 Right. But if we have. Goals and we don't quite reach the goals. Like, you know, there might be disappointment there, but it also might just be like motivation to keep going, right? Right. Right, versus. Like I'd miss the mark, right, expectations unmet and the yeah.

49:41 The the energy of expectations along with that sound effect because that was perfect is like they're they're hard. You know, it's like they're, they're hard lines, whereas goals has like a softness and a circularity to it.

49:52 And so you're also allowing other great surprises to come in. But when there's expectations, it's like I'm not creating room for other possibilities. And, you know, again, separate podcasts, another day, another time. But, you know, there was expectations of self is where we really can actually keep ourselves or put ourselves into overwhelm as well 'cause we just like it can be so frozen. Yeah.

50:16 Cool. So let's kind of wrap up a little bit with regards to, I mean, we talked a lot about the boundaries and the overwhelm last week. And that actually is a really important thing to help us feel grounded and able and balanced to be able to deal with what a lot of what we talked about today, which is just noticing your own possible projections outwardly and then whatever might be be coming in. And then how we respond to that as teachers, as facilitators, as people of service.

50:45 So yeah, I don't know if there's anything else that we need to to touch on. I feel like we've kind of covered it in the out, how to be. How to see things as they are? How to see things as? They are, Yeah. Which, you know, it seems like such a simple sentence, but, like, what does that mean?

51:02 Well, you know, you have to listen to everything we already said, I guess. Right. So trying to see things as they are being present as much as possible and allowing it to be and not trying to change what it is necessarily, Yeah. So.

51:16 Cool. Very fun. Now I know you mentioned the energy school and you mentioned in the last episode as well, but just maybe just give another little run through of what that is. I know it's coming up soon so just in case someone might be interested so. Basically, I, my energy school both has programs where you can really learn how to manage your own energy body. You know, I run that in workshops around the world here in Bali.

51:40 I'm in Bali a lot now and I also have an energy practitioner certification program where you actually learn how to work with energy. It's based on biodynamic craniosacral therapy, which actually has a lot of elements of what we talked about today is, you know, that power of, of being able to listen and see someone for where they are.

52:00 And then there's like this energy field, the wisdom of the field that can, you know, that really is, is carrying the work and the healing. And I also bring in some shamanic practices and of course, and listening to me talk, there's a lot of trauma transformation and you have to also understand your own energy body as well.

52:19 So the the next one we have, and I think we've got one slot left is June 9th through 22nd here in Ubud and I am flirting with November for the next one. Oh, really slow heads up. So you know, I'll, I'll let you know when the dates are set and God November. I'm so is that a bad one?

52:39 It's not great for me but have a chat. Because 'cause we, we, you need to be the next one I do wanna have. A chat about this God OK yeah cool thank you for that so just remind me that you get dates again June June 9th through. 22nd OK, so.

52:51 Try to get that last spot if you're interested. Don't delay. And then, yeah, just talking a little bit about energy. I'm just kind of pulling up the previous episodes that we had. So not just the one last week, but episode 97 we talked about, oh, where is it?

53:06 Oh, the energetic field. So in case some of that language from today's episode was new to you, Episode 97, the energetic field, we dive a lot more into that. And then episode 114, we talk a lot more about energy in motion or emotion overall. So all of these kind of episodes really just kind of complement each other.

53:24 In fact, I'd say those two episodes I just mentioned might actually be great precursors to what we talked about last week and today as well. Then also, you know, if the training is something of interest and probably really helpful as a foundation. So a lot of energy conversation.

53:37 Yeah, which is cool. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank. You once again, yeah. I love, I love having chats with you. I feel it's, I always learn things and yeah, it feels great. So any final thoughts before we wrap it up?

53:53 Words of wisdom? I feel like this is. Pressure on. Only maybe it's projected pressure exactly. And self-imposed pressure. You can also just say, no, I'm good. No, I'm. I'm actually good. I feel like we we said a lot. Yeah, yeah.

54:12 Perfect. Yeah, thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you again, Kat. And yeah, we'll speak to you next week. Have a wonderful, wonderful week. Bye now. Bye. All right, before you go, let me just tell you about the going proyoga.com platform.

54:29 So right now you can go to goingproyoga.com and check it out for free for seven days where you can actually learn more about yoga in the ways of alignment, queuing, sequencing, yoga anatomy. So that if you've done a 200 hour teacher training and you want to continue to learn, practice and grow, this platform is definitely for you.

54:46 So I definitely suggest checking it out. Going proyoga.com right now. You can try it out for free for seven days.